Amy Masson:
Welcome to Women in WP, a bi-monthly podcast about women who blog, design, develop, and more in the WordPress community.
Angela:
Hi, welcome to Women in WAP. I’m Angela Bowman.
Tracy:
And I’m Tracy Apps.
Angela:
Our guest today is Kat Zarabanda joining us from Merida Yucatan in Mexico. Kat is a freelance UX and graphic designer who works for companies in the US and Canada and is also the co-founder of Zara’s Design Studio, a company based in Toronto. Welcome, Kat.
Kat:
Hi ladies. Thank you so much for having me here. Yes, it’s really a pleasure to join, to have this amazing convo with you ladies.
Angela:
I was so delighted to meet you at Word Camp us this summer. So I’m very excited to have you on the show. We like to start off each episode asking our guests how they got into WordPress. How did you get started?
Kat:
Well, everything started with … I was introduced by your friend Joomla. Joomla was the one to introduce me to WordPress actually.
Angela:
That’s so funny.
Kat:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that happened because I got started to work in a web design company, in a web building design and development, and all this stuff company in Bogota, Colombia like in 2010. Yes, like 12 years ago, or 29 maybe. Well, yes. I started to work there as an account manager. I learned first to create Joomla, like Joomla websites. But it’s super normal in all these machismo environments. So our boss was super into …He’s only studied school. He was so, so, so comfortable into that that he never taught us about other ways to create websites. Actually I wasn’t doing web design there because he told me that I will never be good enough to make web design.
Angela:
Wow. Oh my god, are you for real?
Kat:
Yes, yes, yes, yes, one day. Because I’m originally an industrial designer, so I really know about the project, about design projects because it’s the way how I was taught in my college years. So I definitely know how to create the graphic and web design. I was thoroughly convinced about that. He said one day like, “No, you’ll never be good enough to make web design, Kat. Please forget about that. I mean, right now you are just getting out of too much party, too much drugs and alcohol,” which was a little true. But it’s okay. I mean, it was my process. There started to appear a lot of red flags into that toxic environment until one day, I decided like, “No, this is definitely not for me.” I’ve always been super resistant about working for big companies or having like a 9:00 AM-5:00 PM work. So I say like, “No, it definitely must be a way to do that.”
So I got started my independent business. Since I did that, I knew that there was something more about Joomla. I heard a lot about WordPress before. All the people that I knew that was into design and development were into WordPress. So I say like, “No. I’m going to learn it because it shouldn’t be that hard.” So yes, I start exploring, bringing some clients from Joomla environments to WordPress. In that way I learned about that. Everything in my career, at least in my technology career, I always have learned by myself. So yes, it has never been an obstacle for me.
So I started doing research and testing and testing, testing with clients, testing with live websites, committing a lot of mistakes. But yes, certainly in, I don’t know, one or two years ago, I was already building complete WordPress websites for my clients because I not only design them but also implement them. Actually it’s always been a little conflictive to me. I’m a WordPress developer. Is that exists? I don’t know. But yes, that’s actually right now what has give me an income to sustain my family. Yes, and having an independent responsible life with two children now.
Tracy:
I want to say it’s funny, but it’s not because I had the same experience. Mine was in college when I was told I would never be a graphic designer or I would never make it as a web developer. I mean I have seen people hear that and then just shut down, be like, “I guess you’re right,” and then internalize that. But then people like you and I are like, “No, I’m going to prove you wrong.” That gives it kind of fuel, right? So I think that is … It’s an amazing story for sure. What kind of things were the hardest especially teaching yourself and learning, especially coming from a design background into Joomla and then into WordPress? What were some of the hardest things you had to learn throughout your journey?
Kat:
Well, I mean considering that I’m coming from Colombia, that everything started in Bogota, Colombia. There’s something happening there and it’s that there is actually a lot of poverty. The 70% of people in Colombia lives in poverty. So it’s a lot of people with low income. So in that way, when, I don’t know entrepreneurs, small companies, medium companies, even big companies, try to hire you for making a website, and you ask them all the … You still ask them the same price that you asked eight years ago, most of them just can’t pay for that, just can’t. It’s not even that thinking that they always like cheap. It’s not that. It’s just that the income and the economy of the country doesn’t let people to hire people at the price that I asked for. So I remember a lot when in 2012, I met my husband, and I got married in 2014. I remember a lot talking with my mother-in-law, well he has to work. That’s another story.
I remember a lot talking with my mother-in-law from the States because I have a Colombian one and another one from the States. She asked me, “Okay. And how much is your work hour?” I say like, “I don’t know, $5 is okay.” She say like, “What are you talking about? How can you say that? Please stop saying that ever. Your work is way more. You’re more than qualified for that. And you really have to learn your own value.” So it’s been like a process because since I heard her, I decided to contact my cousin who lives in Toronto and is the co-founder of Zara’s design studio. Zarita!
But the thing is that yes, she started telling me, “No, I think that probably you could find bigger clients here. I have the access to this economy, to these clients that are willing to pay more. So let’s do that. Let’s do that. I will find the clients here, and you can make the development. I can also design because she’s also a designer, and we will find better clients here. So right now, even I would like to come back and have a work in a company in Colombia, no. It won’t be easy to get paid for the income that I need to sustain the family and being there. So that’s one of the reasons because I decided to move. I live a few months in the States, it didn’t work for me. Then I decided to come here to Mexico, and it is working.
Always it’s not easy because it’s hard to be away from family, but I think it’s worth it. Right now, I’m actually moving into having a small struggle now. What is the thing? That right now, most of my clients are in Canada. Right now, the Canadian dollar in front of the US dollar is getting super weakened. So right now, if what I’m receiving for a website paid in Canada is considerably smaller from what I receive from my website paid in the US. But yes, I guess this is part of the challenges post pandemic and the economy, and the shortage of economies that we have now worldwide.
Tracy:
Yeah. So that struggle of even just knowing your worth and being able to do that, I think that is one of the hardest things that was for me to learn as well. But I’m glad you were given good advice early on. I think that that’s really good to hear.
Angela:
But also finding your worth in a global economy. I think you’re one of the first people we’ve … I mean, we’ve talked with Mary Job in Nigeria, but we didn’t get totally into economics. But I feel like being in the Americas, where you’re straddling kind of North, South, Central America, you’re straddling so many economic zones here. You’re moving from one economic zone to another economic zone and working in yet two other economic zones. Just the ability to do the calculations around what is your worth in these different economies and where do you need to get your clients, and the fact that you’ve needed to get Canadian and US clients.
Sometimes people I feel like are disparaging of people on Fiber. But why people are on Fiber, why these people … Because they need to tap into our economy. That’s one of the ways that they can do that is people in these other countries whose economies are very depressed have to tap into these Western economies or these northern. It’s almost like more Northern economies to be able to get to any real money because their local economies aren’t going to support them.
Though I do know a lot of people in Nigeria whose local, but Nigeria has somewhat of an economy happening where people are making a living there. But other parts of Africa and stuff are quite a bit more challenged in that way. So we want to see WordPress as democratizing the web. But for whom? Who’s being democratized here?
Kat:
Exactly. I actually have had cases, it’s crazy because I have people that hires me still in a lower, lower rate that they would normally hire people in the US or in Canada because they know they can pay me so low. They still have the courage to ask me for a discount. I say, “No way, dude. You are still paying me super low. You as a formal team in your business and you are doing that.” A few weeks ago, for instance, when … I just moved here to Merida a few weeks ago, no, a couple months ago. I decided to check how’s the market here.
When I came here, I went to an interview for a company. They told me like, “Okay, how much are you willing to receive?” I was super in essence saying, “Okay. At least I will expect more than $2,000.” I’m super transparent on telling you what I earned because I think that everyone should be open to that without any bad consequence. I said that. He said, “No, no way I can pay you for that. I’m only willing to pay a thousand dollars.” I say like, “A thousand dollars? It’s a full time job.” Yes. You have to say here nine 9:00 AM-5:00 AM, a half hour for lunch.
Tracy:
Wow.
Kat:
If you take it or leave it. I say, “No. Thank you. Thank you so much.” That’s what I receive for only a part time that I have at this moment. Thank you so much for your offering. So yes, it’s so sad to see this new type of colonialism because I definitely think it’s colonialism because it’s a way that people has to unfortunately in developed economies, to maintain their business but still pay you super low to the people that works for them here.
So yes. I think that right now, if I decide to go and get a formal job, what I will say is to be paid in the same way that you are paid in the US or in Canada because I know that I’m qualified, and I know my worth. It’s super important that people seize that. That’s the reason that motivates me a lot to go and to go and assist to events, like work in the US because it’s the way to visualize people that can’t do that. But it still has both, but it still have all this talent.
Tracy:
It’s funny because I’ve been becoming more aware of that because I don’t have that extra challenge of working across borders typically, usually I don’t. But when I joined Codeable, they say … Because they do have. They have Codeable experts all over the world, and they have a minimum hourly rate of $80 an hour, 80 US dollars an hour for the work. Doesn’t matter what country you live in, whatever that exchange rate is. So some companies are like, “Well, but I can know that we need to level the playing field,” because that’s exactly what you’re doing. This is important work. If you want good people, there’s good people all over the place. So you should be paying them what they’re worth.
Angela:
Yeah, I love what you said. This is yet another form of colonialism. I really feel like this would be a good article pitch to Master WP or someone who really picks up on those kind of edgy topics because it’s something that we don’t talk about. We’re all talking about democratization, not colonialism. It’s a for real thing that happens. You’re lucky that you had this cousin in Toronto who you could partner with. What about other developers? Do you know any other developers either in Mexico or Colombia who have been willing to work for very, very low rate because it’s kind of what they can get? How do they approach that do you think?
Kat:
Well, it’s different. Sometimes when we have in the skinny cows, we have the party cows and the skinny cows. The skinny cows is when you don’t receive that much. Sometimes I partner with some developers in Colombia. Actually in last year, I created two big websites. I build them, those websites for big companies, like big companies. They still told me like, “No, Kat. We only have this budget for you. But that’s super low. That’s even less than, I don’t know, 15. This is like $10 an hour for working on that.” She said, “No, it’s the only way we can do that.” But it also comes with these issues behind. Sometimes they can’t pay for big licenses in this way because how? If you need to create a good quality work but you can’t pay for licenses of plug-ins, and there are people that sometimes can’t even pay for the Adobe creative licenses.
That’s why it was so sad that Figma was sold a few weeks ago to Adobe. Sometimes yes, I can see that. Right now that I have more privilege because I have made a sort of career into that and I have more stability. I decided that when I work with Latin American friends, I use something that is called the Latin American friend fee, hourly fee. So I have the Latin American friend hourly fee, which is way lower. I have the other fee, the international fees because I otherwise wouldn’t be possible to contribute to national, to Mexican or Colombian projects.
Angela:
That’s right. Yep.
Kat:
There’s still people with that I am super grateful with and I’m willing to collaborate because sometimes they ask me, “No, Kathy, please go help us. We’re so into a hurry. We definitely need some rescue. Please come and help us. We know this is not that much.’ I do it a lot because I estimate them but not because it will represent a thousand dollars for me definitely not.
Angela:
Not much. Yeah. It’s like the fight for the future. And we talk about fight for the future in terms of the WordPress project, but what about fight for the future in terms of bringing up some of these other companies that can’t afford US-priced website? What about our donating time to truly democratizing the web, to helping people in lower income economies participate in the worldwide web? We often talk about the project, but we don’t talk about the people enough, I feel like. The people in the WordPress, I don’t think we talk enough about the privilege, but first the privilege of contributing, right?
Tracy:
Yep, absolutely.
Angela:
That has been talked about. Morton’s definitely gone after that. But the privilege of being able to work for free, but then also the privilege of being able to get work that pays these competitive salaries. Not everyone has access to that or can afford a website. It’s a whole piece. I feel like it’s something that really should be brought up and talked about a lot more and especially when you talk about plug-in fees. Holy Moly, I spend thousands of dollars a year on plug-in fees. How could anyone-
Tracy:
They skyrocketed a lot lately. I was like, I’m even feeling the problem that I was like, “Oh.”
Angela:
Yeah, it’s gone from an $80 a year thing to $400 a year overnight on so many premium plugins. Even Elementor now has their unlimited tier, it’s a thousand dollars a year. It’s like, “Well, I don’t have a thousand websites, but there are other break points.” Well, I have more than that. It’s kind of gotten insane.
Kat:
Unfortunately, this ends up affecting the quality of the projects that are created in this way because sometimes you’re exposed to, if you can pay … Right now, as I say, I can pay for the licenses for, I don’t know, Adobe Creatives because I can do that. But I was exposed, and I got a lot of machines crash because I needed to use a crap version. It was the only way to do that. There are student fees and that stuff. Sometimes that also affects in the companies there in Latin American countries. Because if people can’t pay for the licenses of the plugin, let’s say an LMS.
Angela:
Yes, yes.
Kat:
Right now doesn’t go below a hundred.
Angela:
And 50.
Kat:
$150.
Angela:
That’s right.
Kat:
A year. Yeah.
Angela:
That’s a lot.
Kat:
Sometimes the companies doesn’t have to pay for that or maybe they could have it, but they have a lot of other priorities to deal with, to cope with that they unfortunately can’t have this to pay for that. So yes. Right now, I feel a little like a fish that can’t swim between all those waters. That’s been a lot of my life. I always, even in Colombia, have had the opportunity to swim in privileged areas in Colombia, privileged classes and also go to the poorest, poorest, poorest places and still also live in my regular home and places because I’m a middle class person.
So yes, it’s really nice when you have the chance to watch all these different social and economical environments because it makes you super aware that there are people trying to make a career on technology. Sometimes it’s not so possible because the economy and because there’s not enough open sources economy projects to do that. That’s the reason because WordPress is one of the biggest projects that I support, that I think that offers, has so much to offer to the people.
Tracy:
Well, we talk about democratizing the web. Right? Well, but who does that affect?
Angela:
Yep.
Tracy:
That it is still, like you said, a symbol of colonialism. Even the plugins and even Angela, what you were saying, like, “Oh, the northern countries.” Because we drew the maps. So obviously what’s on top is the ones that have the power. So whoever has the power, writes the history, writes the maps, makes all of those things, makes the rules for everyone.
So it’s almost as if … I mean, there’s got to be this … It definitely needs to be a global discussion because, “Okay. Can plugin creators have basically whatever the percentage of the natural,” what our economy looks like and what a normal paycheck for me would be, whatever percentage that is for someone that in an economy that is much lower and struggling so that would automatically … It’s not like, “Oh, you get a discount.” But no, you’re still paying the same amount just of what everyone else is. I’m not hurting physically. I’m not having to give up food for a day. I’m able to do that, so that should be the same for everyone.
Angela:
Yeah. Almost like a scaling of cost because oh man. I think about it a lot. I have thought about it a lot. I mean maybe because I visited these places in the world. So I’m kind of aware of what’s going on. It’s like, “Man. That’s rough.”
Tracy:
There’s amazing and really talented. We’re missing out on a lot of talent. We’re missing out on a lot of really great things because of that. We don’t see it or they can’t afford a place at the table, all of that. That hurts us too. So those that have also are affected by this. It should be something, a front of mind for everyone to be discussing and seeing like, “Okay, well …” Constantly looking. This goes with UX, who’s not at the table and why? Who made the table? Those kinds of questions no matter what it is, looking at that and seeing, “Okay. Well we’re not going to be able to fix the problem completely, but what small steps can we do to make things slightly better and then slightly better than that?”
Angela:
You’ve done some amazing things because you’ve been part of the … You’ve really gone full in being part of the Word Camp US organizing team for many years.
Tracy:
I saw you made the designs for Nashville, right?
Kat:
Yes, yes, yes.
Tracy:
Yeah, that was great. I loved that branding. It was great. It was beautiful.
Kat:
Thank you. Yes, it was. I work by the hand of … I don’t remember her name, her last name is Blunt, Amanda Blunt I think or Christina Blunt. I think it’s Christina Blunt. But she was the head, she was the design lead. So based on that, I created the website, the layout. It was such a nice experience. I also help a lot in other pieces in the 2019. In the 2020 before everything turned into the online version, I made the logo for the presidential that will happen.
Angela:
Oh.
Kat:
I had to work on US logo that was never into life.
Angela:
Oh.
Kat:
But yes, no, that’s life. It’s okay.
Angela:
Yeah. Going back to what Tracy was saying is what are we missing out on when certain people can’t participate. It’s like we would’ve missed out on you coming from Colombia, and then in Mexico. It’s like look at how much you’ve contributed to the community in the US which is not even where you live. But you’re just such a huge contributor, and even providing us the face of the Word Camp, the look and the feel. Just behind the scenes there, there you are. You know what I mean? Who knew that this is … I mean, there are people who know who you are and that you’ve done this work. But wow, it’s amazing. So what got you involved in the community? What was your introduction to the community after you got introduced to WordPress by Joomla? What introduced you to the WordPress community?
Kat:
Well, the thing is that I always like technology events. It has been kind of my thing. So I started to look how the community and the WordPress project works as itself. I found out that there was these meet-ups and these opportunities to start participating. I tried to make it first in Colombia. I actually started trying to join into the Colombia community. But I found out that there was a lot of men and just a few ladies. I found it super competitive. I don’t know, I feel like, “No, I didn’t feel comfortable.”
Considering that I was planning to eventually migrate to the States or to North America because it was a plan that I had some years ago, I say like, “Okay. Why not start exploring what are people doing into the WordPress community?” I found out all these big communities. I say like, “No man, I have to be there. That’s the place that really serves me.” So that’s why I start contributing to the community. One day, I discover the Word Camp US. I say, “This event looks super fantastic. No, no, no, I will try to apply.” But in that moment, my first son just at one year old. So no, it was super hard. I wasn’t able to go. I was super sad.
But in 2019, 2017, I say like, “No. You know what? I will have apply to help us and organize it. Even I can’t go, I’ll still be participating there, and I will start meeting people from the community. So why not?” So yes, I send my application to participate. One day, I receive an email from Randy Hicks. He’s an organizer from Nashville. I say like, “Really? Are you calling me? Me? Is that true? Yes, yes, yes? Let’s go ahead.”
So yes, I joined to the event and I started working in the organizing teams because there is something that it really has taught me on working in work teams in the US. It’s the team culture. You have a super structuring culture, and you’re amazing organizers. You’re the best organizing events. Please know that. So yes. I found it an amazing opportunity to learn. Even I don’t know if eventually I will contribute to the Mexico community. I have in the 2019. I made the website for the Word Camp Mexico as well. But yes, I think that it was the best way to learn how to work as a team in the US because it was the way how I found that I will eventually make a living on being a digital nomad. I’ve been a digital nomad like 12 years ago. I’ve been in pandemic like 10 years ago. So I’m all into that, so.
Tracy:
I love it.
Kat:
So yes, I think that maybe if in the US and in Canada, do you have the money and the income to pay for what I do and to pay it in the best way? Maybe there’s a chance for me there. So yeah, I started contributing. Just for curiosity, everything in my life has happened for curiosity and intuition, everything.
Tracy:
Love it.
Kat:
Everything in my life has happened because of that. That’s very reason because I’m living here now and everything. So yes, it’s basically because of that.
Tracy:
I love that you talk about … Because I think of definitely getting involved because I remember thinking, “Oh, the WordPress community is huge because it’s worldwide.” I was like, “Oh, this is crazy.” Then I got involved or speaking or volunteering or contributing. I was like, “It’s actually because of the team. You actually can make close friends instead of not having those like, oh, there’s thousands and thousands and thousands of people.” You’re just a number. I think that’s one thing that the community has been doing very well is that you can find a team that you can contribute to again if you can. But what the solution is, we’ve talked about this crazy of how do we get more people that we can do that. But that’s an ongoing process, I think. But that’s cool.
Angela:
Well, I feel so fortunate to have met you. We met outside of just standing in front of Green Geeks, which is also a really fabulous company of course. I feel like that was kind of serendipitous too that that’s where we kind of were talking. Yeah, it’s just been such a pleasure to speak with you. I really look forward to seeing you at another Word Camp US. I hope Tracy and Amy will be there, and we’ll have a party for Women in WP. This is our future life goal, to make that happen again. So to wrap up, it would be really great to let people know how they can find you online.
Kat:
Okay. If you want to know more of my happy adventures in Mexico and worldwide because I like to travel a lot, you can find me in Instagram as KatZarabanda K-A-T-Z-A-R-A-B-A-N-D-A.
Angela:
Nice. Got it. I’ll have that in show notes too. Yeah.
Kat:
You can find my website is KatZarabanda.Works. Yes, I have that.
Tracy:
Love it.
Kat:
That amazing domain.
Angela:
That’s awesome.
Kat:
So yes, you can check more of my work or if you have a nice work for me, I can do that for you. Of course only if you pay me well.
Angela:
There you goes.
Tracy:
Exactly.
Angela:
Yes, yes, yes.
Kat:
Only if you pay me well. Otherwise, no. You will find someone who can do it cheaper.
Angela:
That’s awesome.
Tracy:
I love it.
Angela:
Look forward to seeing you soon, Kat. Thank you.
Kat:
Thank you. Thank you, Angela and Tracy. Have an amazing day.
Speaker 1:
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