061: Starting a New Website Business in Midlife with Itohan Kukoyi

Angela:

Welcome to Women in WP, a bimonthly podcast about women who blog, design, develop and more in the WordPress community. Hi, welcome to women in WP. I’m Angela Bowman.

Amy:

And I’m Amy Masson.

Angela:

Our guest today is Itohan Kukoyi, joining us from Nigeria. She is a content creator, designer, developer and entrepreneur. Welcome, Itohan.

Itohan:

Thank you very much, Angela.

Angela:

We like to start off each episode of our show by asking our guests how they got into WordPress. How did you get started in this whole crazy web development thing?

Itohan:

Well, it started with my passion for being an entrepreneur. I’d been working for years as a customer relationship manager with one of the big firms here in Nigeria. But at about I think, would you call it a midlife crisis? I needed a change. So I was thinking about starting a business. I wanted to start an online store, a bookstore specifically. So I went online and I found Wix.

Itohan:

Wix was what I found first, the CMS I found first. So I tried them, started a bookstore. And years back, I had done something in programming, in school. And I realized I really loved building. I went back to work, but after a while I left work. I resigned and I started again from the beginning. And I really wanted to learn to build sites, just the creating, building something.

Itohan:

You know how it feels? Even if it’s drag and drop like Wix or whatever, just building that site and seeing it take a life of its own. If somebody wants to start a business, that you’re able to put that on a page, add the content, the pictures, and it turns into something else that an audience can walk into. I don’t know. I know you feel like that, so that’s how it feels for me.

Itohan:

So I really wanted to. I started from the scratch. I actually started again when I was about almost 40, when I started learning to build. So I found WordPress. Yeah, I found WordPress. And thank God for YouTube. YouTube, almighty YouTube. So I went in there. It was not easy, but it was so worth it. When you’re doing something that you love it’s easy. Because it’s rewarding, it’s easy.

Itohan:

So I started again. But I even wanted to go further, so I’ve been learning to program, learning languages. The basically, HTML, CSS and JavaScript. But the beautiful thing about WordPress, it’s like you can learn backward. When you build, when you do a section, when you do the header, the nav, and you go back to the program, actually you’ve seen the practical and it’s easier for you. But starting was not that easy. But there was a community.

Itohan:

There’s a strong WordPress community here in Lagos, Nigeria, so I was able to ask questions, get support for what I needed. There was a body, and then we used to record it. We could meet frequently. There are some really beautiful women, WordPress women here in Lagos. They really helped me out. I was able to do it. Of course, getting the first customer, all of that, maybe we’ll get into that later. But that’s how I started WordPress.

Amy:

Wow.

Angela:

That’s amazing.

Amy:

We haven’t had a lot of people that started in Wix. So, what was it that made you really want to move from Wix to WordPress?

Itohan:

You can’t compare Wix to WordPress at all.

Amy:

And dear Wix people, we’re not [inaudible 00:04:18] on Wix. We’re just curious.

Itohan:

No. No. No, we’re not. We’re not at all. Thank God for Wix, but then WordPress is a whole new game that you can build something, actually be able to … The ease of building a website from scratch. As you get more experienced, maybe you can call it ease. Being able to just go on the backend there, put some things together and you see something beautiful coming out.

Itohan:

[inaudible 00:04:54] do that with. And then another beautiful part is that your clients, you can teach them to be able to manage these things by themselves. You understand? I thank God. I’m so thankful for WordPress, like I’m sure most entrepreneurs are. I’ve tried other content management CMS and I don’t think any compares to WordPress.

Amy:

No, I would agree.

Angela:

That’s definitely how we feel. When you got into doing this development work, did you find that you were improving your skills in different ways? And what specific skills did you feel like you needed to really learn to maximize how well you could work in WordPress?

Itohan:

Being creative. To be able to build a website, there are other creative skills you’ll need. For me, specifically, I learned that having a bit of graphic skills goes a long way. It helped me with my Photoshop. I actually do the work of a graphic designer most of the times. So WordPress, I grew. This is three, four years now? I’ve grown so much, apart from the confidence that comes with it.

Itohan:

I call it being a creator. You just put some things together in a bag, you shake it up and then voilà. You have something beautiful. And the beautiful thing is growth. Because building a website is not just about dragging and dropping. There are some other things you need to do. The logo comes in. And then you have to learn to be creative with logos.

Itohan:

You have to learn to be creative with pictures. You understand? Being able to put the best kind of picture, or even trying to advise your clients. Advise them. And then from there, I have also garnered skills like SEO, of course. You have to learn how it works, the website works. And in the quest to be better for my customers, to be better able to advise my customers, you dig even into social media. You have to be a social media mastermind.

Itohan:

And that’s why I call myself a content creator, because content was not something I really wanted. It was not part of it. But being in WordPress, or building, especially when you have clients, you have to be able to advise them, too. And of course, having my own social media page, I had to learn to create content. I’ve learned a lot with WordPress. I have grown so much in the past three, four years.

Itohan:

It’s amazing. And then, that I get to know this and I’m able to pass it on to other people? Because people think of tech and they’re like, “Wow, it’s so hard.” But like every other thing, it’s started. And of course, you have to learn, you continually learn. And as you build, you grow. Of course, you never stop learning. But I have gotten so much skills in this four years. It’s amazing.

Amy:

It looks like to work in web development, you just have to be a really good programmer and that’s all there is to it. And to make a website that converts, that people respond to, it’s less about programming and more about everything else.

Amy:

The user experience, knowing how people use websites, knowing what people are going to respond to and having great content. And the social media and the marketing, all that goes into it. And none of that, well, little of that has to do with how good you code.

Itohan:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Very true. Very true. Because at the end of the day, as a web designer, you also have to learn to think how your customers think, how the audience, their market, their targets, how they think. Because apart from being a web design, you’re also a consultant. You’re teaching your clients. You have to teach them. There’s a passion.

Itohan:

I think, for me, there’s a passion that comes out of apart from building, also knowing that my customers are able to maximize everything. They can get everything they can out of that. And that’s about me knowing more. The more I know, the more I can advise them, and the more they can get rewards out of what I built for them. So it’s really satisfying.

Angela:

Wow, that’s amazing. And I think it’s like what Amy was saying, there is this thing with the developer community that, “Oh, you’re not a real web developer if you’re not doing JavaScript or PHP.” And I’d say, all of these businesses, there are so many local and small businesses that rely on people like you, like me, like Amy, who really claim that design and content focus.

Angela:

And you know what Google cares about? Google cares about your content. They just care about the words. They care about that the users are engaging with it. That’s it.

Itohan:

Yeah. And the funny thing is most web developers, the so-called devs, the code devs, most of them use CMS. Because imagine having to, for a small business, create a website for a small business, having just to sit down and have to code all the way. Besides for, like you said, the user experience, a CMS is better, except there’s a particular reason you have to build from ground up.

Itohan:

It’s better, because they’ll be able to manage these sites themselves. Most of them need to be able, maybe to upload products themselves, maybe upload blog posts by themselves. They can’t do that with custom made websites. So at the end of the day, WordPress I think, it’s still going to be there for a very long time.

Itohan:

I even advice, when customers ask me sometimes that they want to build maybe a website from ground up or something, I ask them, “Can you manage those websites?” Apart from the amount, the money that comes in, because it’s way more expensive, do you have the budget for it? One.

Itohan:

Then number two, do you want to be able to manage the site without necessarily having to ask somebody? No products for you every few weeks you want? And then blog posts, for example. There’s really nothing that a website built from ground up has that WordPress doesn’t have.

Angela:

And even in the WordPress community, there’s that developer attitude, the WordPress developers thinking, “Oh, you need to be doing React and JavaScript.” And it’s like, as much as we’ve been promoted now to learn JavaScript deeply and do React and all these things, maybe if you’re building much more custom applications or things off of WordPress, you need that.

Angela:

But so far, I haven’t needed it. I can use what I have already in WordPress and build the most amazing sites for people. And sometimes, pretty sophisticated stuff.

Itohan:

Yeah.

Angela:

Yeah.

Itohan:

I hear Disney, the Disney website, it’s a WordPress site.

Amy:

All right.

Itohan:

It is a WordPress.

Amy:

It is. And I love everything you just said. I’m just really, really reveling in it because a few years ago, I had a college student that was graduating with a computer science degree and he was asking me questions about an internship. And he’s like, “Well, why would you use WordPress when you could just build them all from scratch?”

Amy:

And I said, “Well, because then my clients can’t do anything.” And he’s like, “But you’re just throwing away income, because then you lose all that updating.” And I’m like, “Well, eventually, there’s only so much maintenance work you can take. And eventually, you’re going to stop and you’re not going to be able to grow your business anymore.”

Amy:

“Because all you can do is maintain these old websites.” You can’t take new clients. And to me, it felt like a roadblock to growing a business, rather than enhancing it by custom building everything from scratch. And he just didn’t understand.

Itohan:

I’m sure if you were to go back to him, maybe years from now, he’ll understand. Because most people that have been in the dev community for a long time, they prefer to use CMS, if they can.

Itohan:

Most of them are even trying to learn now, because the amount of time you have to throw into building a custom made site, it doesn’t make any sense. Except there’s a particular reason why it has to be built.

Amy:

Exactly.

Itohan:

It doesn’t make any sense. Yeah.

Amy:

I’ve done a lot of-

Itohan:

And then you also mentioned something. You were talking about him thinking about the income that you’re going to miss. But he’s not thinking about his clients.

Amy:

Right.

Itohan:

When you’re really thinking about it, the clients, except there’s a reason why they have to build a custom made site, the clients need something they can tweak themselves when they need to. Something they can handle, little problems from the backend themselves, if they want to, if you’re thinking customer wise.

Amy:

Exactly. Exactly.

Angela:

Yeah. And I’ve had a lot of students who went to bootcamps, they went to a 10-week bootcamp and they learned all the from-scratch stuff. But then they get out of these bootcamps and they’re like, “What do I do now? How do I build a website?”

Angela:

So you can do a 10-week boot camp and still not know how to build a website. They could certainly do the little one from scratch, but it’s not practical. Like you said, it’s not practical. And so then they come to my class where I just teach them WordPress and how to customize the theme.

Itohan:

Yeah.

Angela:

And it’s good that they know a little CSS and HTML. I think that’s super helpful.

Itohan:

Yeah. It’s useful. Yeah.

Angela:

It’s like, “Okay, I’m so glad you learned that CSS.” But then also, they’ve learned CSS, but they haven’t learned how to modify existing CSS and how to deal with customizing an existing theme. And so they have to learn all of that again. So I put them through my own WordPress bootcamp, if you will, on how to do that.

Angela:

Do you find that you end up doing some front end development with having to use CSS? Or are you able to use a page builder tool? What themes and plugins do you like to use to build your sites for your clients?

Itohan:

Okay. For now, although I use … Sometimes they may differ because of the particular scope.

Angela:

Yes.

Itohan:

… of the client. Well, mostly I use Divi.

Angela:

Divi? Yes. Yes. And that lets you just do a lot of that constructing of the pages.

Itohan:

Yeah.

Angela:

Yes. And you don’t have to get into much code at all.

Itohan:

For the website? Whatever it is, I can do with Divi.

Angela:

Yes.

Itohan:

Divi is great. Then for plugin purpose? I really don’t. Mostly, of course, everybody does the WooCommerce and all of that.

Angela:

Yeah.

Itohan:

Do I have special ones I use? I use what I … Okay. Definitely. I don’t have particular favorites of plugin, but I also like Elementor.

Angela:

Yes, I do too. And I’m an Elementor global team leader.

Itohan:

And most of their plugins, too.

Angela:

Yeah.

Amy:

I have a few clients on Elementor. I’m learning it. I’ve been a Beaver Builder girl since the beginning, but I do like Elementor, too.

Itohan:

It is beautiful. Even Divi. Divi is so customizable, it’s so easy to change. You won’t believe the ease of Divi. If you haven’t tried Divi, I’ll advise Divi. It makes work a whole lot easier. And Elementor. Of course, you should. Elementor has its own strengths, too.

Angela:

Yeah. I started using Elementor last December. And now, I run a meetup group that I will send you an invite to, and to Amy. And if either of you have any Elementor questions, I will bend over backwards to help you both with that. So I will be your Elementor buddy.

Itohan:

Yeah.

Angela:

If you need anything. The pro version is definitely key to being able to do like header and footer and the templates for things, but you can do all those custom pages with that. That’s cool that you’ve come across that.

Angela:

Tell us about the WordPress community in Nigeria. So you talked about these women and you talked about how welcoming they were and how much they helped you. But set the scene. Do you have regular meetups? Do you have a WordCamp? Tell us all about this community.

Itohan:

Yeah, we used to have monthly meetups before COVID. The world changed.

Angela:

The before times?

Itohan:

Yeah, the before times. But now okay, well, like I said, I was invited to the meeting. It helped me a whole lot. And we have these meetings where they’ll actually do the basics, like how to start WordPress, how to use WooCommerce with WordPress. And then at the end of the day, they’ll give you a community. And then of course, we had WordCamp.

Itohan:

The last WordCamp we had was two years ago and it was amazing. It has such a huge field of people. It draws in content developers, actual devs. You go in there and then you could network a lot. And there are people. The lady that heads its over here, she’s so friendly. She’s super. I could actually call. And the beauty about the dev community and even WordPress is there’s no secrecy, so to say.

Itohan:

Open source, everything. So, anything I needed. I had so much questions in the beginning. They were able to take me by the hand. They helped me a lot. Even I had one that actually interned me, for free. You understand? Like you were saying the other day, you go to a bootcamp, some time ago, you go to a bootcamp and you come back and you’re like, “So, how do I start?”

Itohan:

Sometimes, you can see. Okay. You’ve watched so much videos and everything, but you’re now like, “How do I really start?” So the internship really helped me a lot. It gave me an even footing, things to do with clients, advice. And the community is super strong here in Lagos. They’re really strong in Lagos.

Angela:

Is that how you met Mary Job?

Itohan:

Yeah, Mary Job. She’s super.

Angela:

Sorry, Amy. Yeah.

Amy:

Yeah. One of our most listened to episodes was Mary Job. Now, have you been able to start resuming in-person meetings?

Itohan:

Well, not really. We’re still online for now. We’re still online.

Amy:

Yeah, us too.

Itohan:

We do some virtual [inaudible 00:20:16] sometimes. Things have not come together that much already. Everybody is still being careful.

Amy:

Yeah. So I wanted to ask you, when you’re building sites for clients, what kind of clients are you typically building for? And where are you finding them?

Itohan:

That’s another thing. That’s the question. Where do you get? Well, mostly, I found out that apart from … I do social media. Or rather I do ads, run ads on social media. But I found out that the best way to get clients is referrals really, doing a great job. Those customers are really the best ways to get customers. They refer you for years.

Itohan:

They keep bringing you new ones and new jobs. And networking, too. It’s not easy. You can’t sit at home and wait for clients to come in. But it gradually gets easier. The more people know you build and the more you put yourself out there, the more people come in. And then the more good jobs you do, good jobs, there are people that can refer and say you did a great job.

Itohan:

I think it gets easier. But mostly, like I said, it’s people I’ve worked with before, in the UK, the US, they refer me a lot. But running ads has helped me a whole lot. It puts you out there. Because right now on social media, just posting things, it doesn’t work anymore. It doesn’t work anymore. So I run ads, too. But then, having a great portfolio, I think helps.

Itohan:

Having a portfolio where people can go to, to see your previous work, it helps. Because when you post on social media, certainly on your bio, you have your website there when people click in there and there. Sometimes I’ve not run a promo for years. I think as you grow, I’d like to advise people that are just starting to be a bit patient.

Itohan:

It’s not easy being patient, especially when bills are coming in. But if you just hold on, keep doing what you’re doing, make sure your page, like for me, Instagram is very good for me, Instagram, your page, keep it updated so people can come to your page and see what you’re doing. And then also, find ways to attract people to your page.

Itohan:

I find that sometimes from the blues, somebody just calls me, even though I’ve not run ads and I’ve not been on Instagram for a while. And I ask them, how did they know to call me? And they say they went to my page. I think maybe having done this for a bit and people got to your page, they know that you actually know what you’re doing. But mostly, I would say doing a good job.

Itohan:

I would say doing a good job. I think that’s the best, referral, really. And networking. Networking helps a lot. I try to find groups. When I see groups where the kind of people like small businesses and celebrity groups too, I try to do that. Because if people know you, they might know people you don’t know that they’ll be able to refer you to.

Itohan:

But the summary is, you can’t keep quiet. You can’t sit at home and wait for something to happen. You have to go out there. As an entrepreneur, you have to go out there and market yourself. You have to sell yourself.

Angela:

Yeah. It’s amazing how many people are doing WordPress in Lagos. Lagos has a pretty vibrant tech community.

Itohan:

Beautiful. Everything. The dev community, the content developers, everything. Lagos is the burgeoning home.

Amy:

When you’re running ads for your business, are you doing like Google Ads, Facebook ads? Where are you putting those ads?

Itohan:

I do Google sometimes. Well, maybe because I’m mostly on Instagram, so I do a lot of IG. And sometimes I run it from Facebook. And of course, when you’re running ads, you have to test to see what works. Then go back, refine again to see what works and go back.

Itohan:

Maybe the day you run the ads may not be the time that the person comes to say, “Hello, I need a job. I need something done.” But I found out that it puts you in their faces. And then whenever they are ready, they can come to you. I do Instagram most of the times. I’ve done Google Ads, but for me, I prefer Instagram.

Amy:

Interesting. Okay. I haven’t heard a lot of developers using Instagram Ads, but now I’m going to have to think about that.

Angela:

Yeah. I know a lot of artists use Instagram Ads. And I’ve seen more people come across with sponsored things in Instagram from other types of industries, too. There’s clothing. But I’ve also seen some developers, some sponsored stuff from developers.

Angela:

But lots of artists. And I’d say, being a web developer, building the kind of boutique sites that you build, it is like being an artist. And it does get you in front of them.

Itohan:

But remember, too. You see, since these same people are marketing to maybe clothing and all that, but remember, since they are there, they are your audience too.

Angela:

Yeah.

Itohan:

They may want to build an E-store, for example. Lots of audiences over there. And you know Insta is so visual?

Angela:

Yes.

Itohan:

I’ve discovered that. It’s so visual, but not as noisy as Facebook.

Angela:

Yes.

Itohan:

Facebook is so noisy. Okay. So Twitter is a bit more like a microblog kind of thing. Twitter is more about selling yourself and not the market, most of the time. So you have to sell yourself for people to know you, before they can find out what you’re doing. But Instagram is more in your face.

Angela:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Itohan:

Maybe you’re running those ads and maybe you targeted people like maybe fashion, the fashion industry, lawyers, whatever. Most of them are right there.

Angela:

Yes. Yes.

Itohan:

They’re right there on Instagram. Almost everybody is on Instagram at least maybe a few minutes a day.

Angela:

Yes.

Itohan:

Honestly, it has worked out well for me. And then sometimes I run it from Facebook and then link it to Facebook too. It runs on Facebook and it runs on Instagram. It’s worked quite well.

Angela:

That’s amazing. It’s a really interesting turn I feel like, because the Google Ads are just so blah. It’s just all text. But people are on Instagram, they’re already having a feel-good experience.

Itohan:

Yeah.

Angela:

And so they’re not doing a search for something like-

Itohan:

It just comes across them. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Angela:

It just comes across, yeah. Where Google, they might be doing a search but it’s so non personal. Where in the Instagram, you can make that personal connection.

Itohan:

Especially, when you know the ads go up there.

Angela:

Yes.

Itohan:

And you can tell they are ads. Well, Instagram, if you’re just browsing and sometimes you browse and something just pops up, and you’re like, “Oh yeah, I do need a website.” Maybe something like that, and you get an inquiry. Well, Google works for people, too.

Itohan:

I have a Google My Business Page and it works well for me, too, for local content. I try to keep them updated as much as I can. But Insta has turned out to work for me, for the same reason that the celebrities or other kind of businesses use it. It’s just there. There’s so much screen time on Instagram.

Amy:

Yeah. I love what you said about having to go out and market yourself, because so many people think that, “Oh, I have a website now, people are going to come knocking at my door.” And it takes so much more. And you really have to be your own advocate to get people to recognize that you are there and do great work.

Amy:

And then adding on to that, as you have the website, you’re marketing yourself and then the referrals. Just the whole cycle is so important. You can’t just do one part of it.

Itohan:

Absolutely. You’re right. You’re very right, a cycle.

Angela:

Yeah. And I’m looking at your website right now. And it is beautiful. And I know what you mean about the fashion. These people who could be potentially your customers in Nigeria, who are on Instagram, they’re on Instagram because they have that aesthetic thing.

Itohan:

Yeah.

Angela:

And now oh, they see you. And you build a website and they need a new website. And your sites are beautiful. And the photos are amazing. And you’re doing a really great job at all of that. And it impresses me that you’ve only been doing it for a few years.

Angela:

And it’s kind of lucky for you, because Amy and I entered WordPress at I’d say a very challenging time to make beautiful sites, because we couldn’t build such beautiful, huge impressive sites like you’ve done, 15 years ago.

Amy:

Oh God, that was terrible.

Angela:

It was just al …

Itohan:

Well, that means you didn’t start with WordPress. Did you start with WordPress?

Amy:

No.

Angela:

It was WordPress.

Amy:

No.

Angela:

It was all ugly.

Amy:

Well, but I started before WordPress where I was just doing HTML sites. So yeah. No, my sites were terrible.

Itohan:

Oh, that is so awesome.

Angela:

Yeah, they were all bad.

Itohan:

With HTML sites?

Amy:

I think we should have a party where we have a video and then everybody has to be prepared to show their first paid website, a screen cap of how bad it was, and then we can all just laugh. I think that would be so fun.

Itohan:

It doesn’t sound bad at all. That one? Ah, no. No. No. But that’s an experience I would have loved to have. That means you guys have so much. Wow. But can you imagine the stress it comes with? All that? Whoa.

Angela:

Yeah, it was painful. It was very painful. But you were able to come into WordPress at a time when we had these page builders and these really robust themes. And then you could really focus on the content.

Angela:

You could really focus on these beautiful images and all this beautiful text, and create these unbelievable sites that for us, when we started, would have been like yeah, no way would we have had as impressive a portfolio to have.

Itohan:

Well, you can do that now. You could do that then and now.

Angela:

Yeah.

Itohan:

Wow, I wasn’t [crosstalk 00:31:39].

Amy:

Yeah, the classic editor just wasn’t designed for us to build beautiful layouts in.

Itohan:

Yeah, that’s how it was then. But you have to learn a whole lot more there.

Angela:

We did.

Itohan:

So I can imagine how much more you have now. I can imagine. That is so awesome. Super.

Angela:

Well, if you wanted a sidebar, you had to do it in PHP code. If you wanted to change something with how the menu items were, you had to do it in PHP code, if you wanted to customize the pages in the menu. So in a way, we learned how WordPress works, really how WordPress works. And now, with these [crosstalk 00:32:17]. Yeah. What Divi is doing is-

Itohan:

You should be a dev.

Angela:

Yeah. So what Divi is doing is Divi is working with how WordPress works. It’s not like Divi is doing anything special. It’s just like it’s hooking into all of that stuff for you. So you don’t have to do the code part. But it was painful.

Angela:

And I would teach classes to people and maybe one out of 10 people could go with it, because it was hard. It was so hard. But now, I do. I love the work you’ve done. It’s great.

Itohan:

Awesome. I wish I knew. Because you had to learn the hard way, you can imagine how much more you know, how much more you can do with themes. That’s the best way to learn, as far as I’m concerned. It might have been painful, but yeah, it’s awesome.

Angela:

But it hurt. It was really.

Itohan:

It’s true, you won’t be at peace.

Angela:

There were nights I couldn’t sleep and I’d just be dreaming of code. And I would be so stressed out because I didn’t know how to do something. And I knew the next day, I was going to have to get up early and try to figure it out.

Angela:

For my first three years of doing WordPress, it was 100% anxiety, for three solid years. And then after three years, I felt like, “Okay, I think I finally figured this stuff out.”

Itohan:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Amy:

Oh, my gosh, I remember. Did anybody else used to just find a $40 template and then login, and HTML it to look how you wanted it to? Was that just me?

Itohan:

Wow. That’s awesome, Amy. Did you have to work with [crosstalk 00:33:55]? Okay. No. No. No, you didn’t need it for the HTML pages. You only needed it for-

Amy:

No, you had to understand it a little bit, but you didn’t really have to write it. So I would just avoid that and just focus on the HTML and the CSS. But I’m pretty sure that’s not advised as the way to make websites. But it was early.

Angela:

It was early.

Itohan:

But even devs, devs now still are there. You can’t learn everything to do with codes. Some of the times, you still have to go Google, find out how it’s done. That’s the way to learn it. The more you Google it, the more it sticks.

Amy:

Yes.

Angela:

Yeah.

Amy:

And I feel like even now, with every site I build, I just learn something new about WordPress that I didn’t know before.

Itohan:

That’s the beauty of WordPress, you learn something. After every project, I feel a whole lot better, especially when you get those new projects with maybe something you haven’t done before.

Amy:

Exactly.

Itohan:

And you have to learn on the job. Whoa.

Amy:

I love that.

Itohan:

I could be doing it and get so anxious. Like Angela said, you actually have dreams, scary dreams, nightmares about it. But then at the end of the project, you’re so much better. You’ve learned so much more. It’s a beautiful feeling.

Angela:

Wow. Yeah, exactly. Well, it has been fantastic talking to you today. I’ve just loved everything about this conversation. Before we go, can you let everybody know where they can find you online?

Itohan:

Okay. Online? My website? My website is sotariaagency.com. I’m sure we’ll be able to send I. Maybe I’ll send it through the chat here.

Amy:

We’ve got it. And yeah, it’ll be with the show notes.

Itohan:

Okay. That’s good. Sotariaagency.com. And then on Instagram, Sotaria Agency, too. On Facebook, Sotaria. Everything is Sotaria Agency. Yeah.

Amy:

Awesome. Well, thanks for being here.

Itohan:

I so enjoyed and I’ve learned a lot from you guys. I’m already following and I’m going to make sure I follow your journey more. You’ve so inspired me today. Thank you so much, Amy and Angela.

Amy:

And thank you for being on.

Angela:

Thank you.

Amy:

Thank you for listening. Interested in being on the show? Sign up on our website, womeninwp.com. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram, and join our Facebook group to have conversations with other women in WordPress. (silence)