080: Yvette Sonneveld – From WP Community to a Job at Yoast

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This episode is sponsored by Ninja Forms


About Yvette Sonneveld:

Yvette Sonneveld is a full-stack online communications professional who currently works as team lead community for Yoast. She moved back to The Netherlands some five years ago after having lived abroad for almost 15 years. At that time, she barely knew anyone in the field of online marketing in The Netherlands and Europe. After attending WordCamp Europe in 2017, she started contributing: to the global marketing team, by speaking at WordCamps and as a WordCamp organizer. Her involvement led to countless opportunities, including freelance gigs and job offers.

Find Yvette Sonneveld: Yoast | Twitter | LinkedIn


Women in WP | WordPress Podcast
Women in WP | WordPress Podcast
080: Yvette Sonneveld - From WP Community to a Job at Yoast
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Transcript

Angela Bowman:

Welcome to Women in WP, a bimonthly podcast about women who blog, design, develop and more in the WordPress community.

Angela Bowman:

Hi, welcome to Women in WP. Today’s episode is sponsored by Ninja Forms, which allows you to build beautiful WordPress forms without being a developer or a designer. I’m Angela Bowman.

Amy Masson:

And I’m Amy Masson.

Tracy Apps:

Yeah, I’m Tracy Apps.

Angela Bowman:

Our guest today is Yvette Sonneveld joining us from the Netherlands. Yvette works as a team community lead at Yoast. Welcome, Yvette.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Hey, thank you for having me.

Angela Bowman:

We like to start off each episode asking our guests how they got into WordPress. How did you get started?

Yvette Sonneveld:

You have a minute? Yes.

Amy Masson:

Yes, we have many minutes right now just for you.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Oh, well, actually my WordPress journey started around 2006-ish. I had been creating hand-coded websites for a few years, but I started getting more and more trouble getting those listed in Google for clients. Then, I heard a rumor that there was this software WordPress, and although the code might not be as organized as a very strict coder would’ve wanted, it would get you listed in WordPress really quickly. They said as fast as 48 hours, and actually that was not right. My first website, my first trial, got listed in less than 24 hours.

Yvette Sonneveld:

I decided to give that a try for one client, and then two. And at some point, it really fast, never looked back. That was my first stage of WordPress, where I really was using the software, and it was free, so that helped with clients on low budgets.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Then skip a few years. In about 2014, I was in my mid-thirties, end 30s. The roaring 30s, I would always say, when you start questioning everything, and wonder if this is really it. So I needed to do something. I needed to snap out of that funk, if you will. And one of the ways I thought to give that a try was to stretch my comfort zone, so I created a bucket list with some challenges. And one of the things that I really had trouble with for a long time was presenting myself among fellow marketers because I was self-taught. And then I thought, okay, but what if I do that in an environment that’s not mine, that’s not where I am learning this pattern? So I thought, okay, so what if I travel, and then practice this somewhere else? That sounded like a good idea at first.

Yvette Sonneveld:

So I booked a ticket to a conference, which was a WordCamp. I booked a ticket from Curacao in the Dutch Caribbean where we lived at the point to Miami, and then I realized that, traveling by myself, crossing US borders was actually also really, really scary. And then being in a different environment where I didn’t know anyone, well, that was pretty scary, too. But it was like the universe had heard me in a way.

Yvette Sonneveld:

So a day or two later, I got this email, what we now call a call for volunteers. And I thought, hmm, that might actually be a lifesaver because then I don’t have to focus on myself, and how to find my place in all those groups, people that are chatting. Instead, I’ll be working, and I’ll be working to make people feel welcome. I can do that.

Yvette Sonneveld:

So that was my very first contribution, giving back to WordPress, which also sounded like a really nice idea because I had been making money from making websites for quite a few years at that point. So I did that, and that was a wonderful, wonderful experience. My contributor volunteer mates became my conference buddies, and it tasted like more. So I did the same thing again six months later in WordCamp Providence, which is now called Long Island, I think. And by doing that, and by stretching my comfort zone in that way, I grew so much that, all of a sudden, presenting myself in my own local networks wasn’t as scary anymore. So then this gave me other opportunities to volunteer at other conferences, and little by little, I got out of that funk, and I built my self-confidence to a more healthy level, if you will.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Then skip another few years. Me and my family moved back from the Caribbean to the Netherlands, and, initially, it was supposed to be for three months, but it dragged along and dragged along. And after a few months, we had to decide, okay, this apparently is where we’re supposed to be right now. At that point, I was in my early forties, and a lot of people who had come back from living and working abroad to the did not have a lot of Dutch working experience, and really had a lot of trouble finding work in their field of work. And while I had international experience, I did not have a formal education in rep-related online marketing, stuff like that. So I didn’t have the work experience, neither did I have the network. So what was I going to do?

Yvette Sonneveld:

And then I thought, okay, let’s see if this same idea works in Europe. There were no local conferences at that time. The first opportunity was WordCamp Europe.

Amy Masson:

Was that In Paris?

Yvette Sonneveld:

Yes.

Amy Masson:

I wanted to go to that one.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Yeah. But that was a 3000, 2500 person conference. So that was huge. But, okay, instead of starting there where I also will sign up as a volunteer, let’s see how that Contributor Day thingy works because it, quote/unquote, only has 500 attendees. So this is how I attended Contributor Day, joined the marketing team, where I met with Bridget Willard and [Dwayne 00:06:39] McDaniels. And it clicked in a way. There were not enough seats. And I’m a mom, I arrange stuff. I find stuff all over the place, so let me find seats. I can do that.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Then, I heard that the group was in need of project management software. Well, I can do that as well. I’ve done that before. So by doing what I already knew, meeting new people along the way, within a weekend, I knew a lot of people. And people from the Netherlands, all of a sudden, I knew like 15, 20 people in the WordPress [inaudible 00:07:15] the Netherlands. They started to invite me to … “Maybe you should speak. You seem to speak, talk, have conversations easily.” They gave me wonderful advice, like sign up, send in a proposal. If you do that, you get accepted. The rest will happen by itself.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Well, it did, but it was still quite a painful experience because it was scary. But, long story short, every time by extending my comfort zone a little bit, I got new opportunities. So from contributing to speaking, to organizing WordCamps, extending my network, getting freelance gig, getting job offers, the snowball kept getting bigger until, last summer, [Taco Verdonschot inaudible 00:08:03] called me and said, “Well, isn’t this about time that you start working for us?”

Angela Bowman:

I love Taco. Taco, if you’re listening to this, we love you.

Amy Masson:

Yeah. I think I have a picture with him from WordCamp US in, I don’t know, whatever year the first year was that they had it in Philadelphia. I was stalking the Yoast people walking around. [crosstalk 00:08:35] sweatshirts. Like, I see you. I see you. I know who you are.

Tracy Apps:

I love that. And it’s like the moral of the story is if it sounds painful, do it because you’re going to grow, and you’re going to actually come out and learn a lot, and gain so much from that experience.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Yeah. Actually, the other day I read something that really resonated with me, and it was no major personal growth ever comes or is accomplished without losing something, or giving something up, or going through a little of a painful experience. And I thought if I look back over maybe the past 10 years, yeah.

Tracy Apps:

Yeah.

Angela Bowman:

Wow. That is such a great testament to that stretching your comfort zone for sure. I think we’ve all been there.

Yvette Sonneveld:

And I think that’s the fact that you don’t give up and the fact that you keep trying, you keep hoping. Maybe it’s like a dance. Life is like dance in a way. It’s two steps forward, one step back. But in the end, we always move forward

Tracy Apps:

And stock the Yoast people, because then that’s the lesson.

Amy Masson:

I think “stalking” is a harsh word.

Tracy Apps:

So, basically, anyone who works for Yoast, if you’re wearing a shirt and you see Amy around in the bushes or something …

Angela Bowman:

She’s lurking behind one of those poles that are in the conference centers.

Tracy Apps:

I have this whole visual. I could see this as a TikTok. I’m just saying.

Angela Bowman:

Well, I love this story of how you started using WordPress, and then how moving into all the conferences really changed the trajectory of your career. I feel like that’s really changed the trajectory of my career, and it wasn’t even as quite as linear as your path, where more opportunities came from that. It was just more, for me, I was absorbing what I was seeing, and able to implement that into my own life.

Tracy Apps:

Yeah. Definitely, I’ve seen that as well. That’s definitely a testament to the WordPress community, and I think one of the things, because it is more of a collaborative and supportive community, that we see once you get active and people are like, oh, like I see your skillset, and that is valuable to this. And I’ve made network connections in the same way.

Tracy Apps:

Yeah. But I do want to point out that volunteering first, that’s a really good strategy, especially when you’re afraid of going and experiencing a new conference. It’s a very solid way of doing it. Yeah.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Really takes the pressure and the … Well, volunteering could also cause anxiety. I totally get that. And it may definitely not work for everyone, but for some people, including me, it will take off the pressure of worrying about how you come across. Particularly if you’re doing things that you already know how to do. Handing out swag, taking care of coats, registering attendees, that’s something that doesn’t take a lot of brain space, but it keeps your mind occupied.

Angela Bowman:

Yeah. And so for anybody that’s never been to WordCamp, and one day would like to attend one in person when that happens again, fingers crossed, definitely consider signing up to volunteer, because it does get you some instant connections to people. You’re going to start communicating. I did it one year for WordCamp US in Nashville. You’re going to start communicating with people in Slack, and you’re going to develop some rapport before you even get there. And then you get there, and there’s the whole volunteer dinner or whatever, get-together, so you get to meet people. Then, you’re hanging out with them. So it does open some doors that, especially if you’re nervous, it gives you an opening without having to just go up, “Hi, I’m” whoever.

Amy Masson:

Yeah. I had that experience at WordCamp in Philadelphia. I was having an emotional breakdown. I’ve talked about my WordCamp emotional breakdowns a few times on these episodes. And people are always surprised when they hear that. And I was majorly crashing, and I went to Contributor Day. I kind of drug myself in there. I cried over my eggs at breakfast and made myself go anyway. And I’m like, “This is just going to be horrible,” but I thought “I’ll just go.” And there’s all these tables set up, and everyone’s grouped up. And I met Zach Gordon there. I’ve seen Zach before, but he was in a very vulnerable space at the time, and he was just so sweet and was sharing so vulnerably about his situation.

Amy Masson:

Because it just shrinks the world so much, you’re at a table with maybe seven or eight people, and everyone was just so sweet and so wonderful. And it made me wish that Contributor Day came first because you could make all those great connections and then carry them into the conference. But Contributor Day is often after the conference. We should talk to someone about that. It really makes such a huge difference.

Yvette Sonneveld:

You see that happen the other way around more, too.

Amy Masson:

Have you seen it the other way around? Yeah. Yeah.

Yvette Sonneveld:

At WordCamps, usually it’s Contributor Day first and then the conference.

Tracy Apps:

Yeah. I remember it being the opposite in Europe. Yeah.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Yeah.

Amy Masson:

Yeah. I think that’s super, super smart. And people aren’t spent from the conference and partying all night the night before. And, yeah, I think it’s a great idea, but I do have a little conference PTSD, so I’m hoping when I go to Porto, I’ll be a little more happy and chill, and I’ll have been in the Netherlands for two weeks before, so I’m sure I’ll be fine. Because I’ll be all chilled out doing the Dutch lifestyle for a couple weeks.

Amy Masson:

So I’ve spent some time in the Netherlands, and it gets rainy and cloudy and dreary in the winter.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Oh, yeah.

Amy Masson:

And so how’s that been being outside of the Caribbean and all, and do you miss the warm water?

Angela Bowman:

I miss the Caribbean and I never even lived there.

Tracy Apps:

Yeah. I miss it. I have never been there, but I do now.

Angela Bowman:

You should. You should, Tracy. That’s what’s missing in your life, Tracy. This is it. This is the answer.

Tracy Apps:

There it is.

Angela Bowman:

She needs to do some snorkeling.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Let me get you started with the things that I don’t miss.

Angela Bowman:

Yes. Do tell us.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Mosquitoes being a top one.

Angela Bowman:

Oh.

Tracy Apps:

Oh, I bet you’d get carried away with those. Whew.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Oh my goodness, yes. Being stinged 10 times a day.

Angela Bowman:

There aren’t mosquitoes in the Netherlands? You don’t have mosquitoes?

Yvette Sonneveld:

Well, we do have some, but compared to Curacao, it’s such a walk in the park. So every time we’re here, someone complain about mosquitoes here, it’s …

Tracy Apps:

Yeah. They were like, “Yeah, no, we’re not going to be here. It’s dreary, and we’re going to go over here where it’s …” Yeah. Okay. That makes sense.

Yvette Sonneveld:

But the nice weather and the sunshine. Yeah, being able to drive down the hill and be in the Caribbean sea in five minutes, I do miss that. Yeah.

Tracy Apps:

Oh, that sounds really rough.

Angela Bowman:

Now, had you always lived there? How long were you there?

Yvette Sonneveld:

I grew up in the Netherlands, and we moved to Curacao in 2001. Lived there for four-and-a-half years. Then moved to Ontario, Canada. Lived there for about three years. And, yes, everybody called us crazy that we made to move from the Caribbean to Ontario.

Amy Masson:

That’s extreme. That’s extreme. More extreme than going back to the Netherlands. Like we’re talking hardcore winter.

Tracy Apps:

Yeah. That is.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Then we weren’t quite ready to move back to the Netherlands, got the opportunity to go back to Curacao, and we said, “Well, let’s do that for about six months, and then see what we really want.” And we lived there for another eight years.

Amy Masson:

Wow. You just bounce around.

Yvette Sonneveld:

And now, we’re back in the Netherlands currently five-and-a-half years, and, yeah, not going to move internationally now. But never say never.

Angela Bowman:

Yeah. Do you vacation? Do you have aspirations for vacations and where would you go? Well, are you going to Portugal? Are you going to Porto in June?

Yvette Sonneveld:

I most certainly hope so. We were lucky, we just got to spend a week in Spain, which was really nice. And that’s one of the things when you live in Europe, traveling is fairly easy. The world looks entirely different. Like 200 kilometers from here, they speak a different language. Their food is different, their architecture is different. So that is a nice thing of the Netherlands, and our kids never lived here, so they get to experience all that, too. So that’s definitely a major upside from living here right now.

Angela Bowman:

Tracy’s a European at heart, and that’s where she’s floundering here in this US lifestyle, I think.

Tracy Apps:

It’s true.

Angela Bowman:

I think this is true, Tracy. I think we figured just what you need.

Tracy Apps:

It really is. I see my friends in Denmark, and they post photos and stuff, and I was like, oh, I miss that place. The place that I could just go across the street and get dark bread. Instead, I had to buy a bread machine so that I could make my own Danish dark bread. I just import the bread mix.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Yeah, that makes sense. In Canada, we baked our own bread for the same reason, because the bread was spongy.

Tracy Apps:

The bread is terrible. Oh, all of these things … And I’ve had bread in other countries, and it’s like real.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Yeah. It’s got substance.

Tracy Apps:

Yeah. It does. I spent weeks in Turkey eating just bread, and just eating so much, and I lost weight because it was real food and not processed stuff that you get here. So, yeah, do we get sponsors so that we can all just kind of like …

Angela Bowman:

Is it time for my sponsor script?

Tracy Apps:

Yeah, I think so.

Amy Masson:

Yes.

Angela Bowman:

If there’s any sponsors that would like to sponsor the Women in WP to travel to Europe, please contact us at women … What is our email address?

Amy Masson:

Womeninwp@gmail.com.

Angela Bowman:

Yeah, that one.

Amy Masson:

We’re so good at this.

Tracy Apps:

Hey, Women in WP listeners, this is Tracy with a quick message from our sponsor Ninja Forms. Wish you could build forms for WordPress without spending forever or recruiting help? You can. Ninja Forms is the WordPress form plugin that is both extremely flexible and easy to use. Create contact forms, order forms, donation forms, and more in literally minutes using prebuilt templates easily customized with Formlogic, upload fields, multi step pages, and more. Just drag and drop what you need where you need it. Integrate with hundreds of services like Mailchimp, Google Sheets, HubSpot, and more without needing to write a line of code. Get Ninja Forms now at ninjaforms.com. And now back to our show.

Amy Masson:

Yvette, tell us more about your work with Yoast. Of course, since we’re, we’re stocking Yoast, and we love all the Yoast people so much, we just want to hear, what’s the nitty gritty of what you do there.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Oh, I’m a team leader for the community team, which means now that I get, in a way, paid for all the things that I did as a volunteer for years. So I get to travel to conferences when they start up again. I get to make sure that other people get to go there, too. I get to support my amazing colleague, [Samma 00:21:34], whose babies are the Diversity Fund and Care Fund. So we get to support people from underrepresented groups to speak at conferences without spending all the money on that. We get to give away gifts to people to reimburse them a little for all the time that they spent in making the software grow, and get maintained, and the events organized.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Yeah, I get to hang out with the amazing Taco and [Karen 00:22:17] and [Marika 00:22:17] at Yoast. Yeah. When I was an outsider, but I knew quite a few people from Yoast, I had that sense that the vibe there was very positive. But in the past five months, I really learned that it’s not just the vibe that you see, but that it’s really rooted in core values, and in the way they see what they can give back to WordPress. And it really comes from the heart.

Yvette Sonneveld:

And I know that there’s people that say, yeah, you see them everywhere, and you’re loud. All those maroon hoodies, it’s maybe a little over the top. And, honestly, I thought that, too, for a while. But experiencing the way they think about things … To give you an example, at some point, I was in touch with the business. I would say things like, “We don’t have to do this according to the law. It’s not obligatory, so we won’t do it.” And hearing someone in yo say something like “We are doing this so that we can continue to look after our people,” that difference is just so stark.

Angela Bowman:

Yeah. It does make me feel like Yoast is more than an SEO plugin. You know what I mean? And that’s something, I think, when people get into these “Which SEO plugin is best,” it’s like, well, they all do essentially the same thing, but what’s always made me very much of a Yoast fan is Yoast is more than Yoast. It’s such a community support. It does so much. There’s so much more Yoast does than just build a plugin. So all those things.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Yeah. Yeah. If you see the countless hours that go into … We have like five people contributing to WordPress and to software only full time. They didn’t need to do that, but they do it because they believe in it, and WordPress gave us so much, we want to give back. It’s things like that. The support of all those different languages. The [inaudible 00:24:45] teaching, traveling to conferences, and sharing their knowledge, it’s different. Yeah.

Angela Bowman:

So since you’ve been at Yoast, have you been still making websites for people, or have you given up that part of your career?

Yvette Sonneveld:

I haven’t accepted new clients for quite a while. I do still have some clients that turned in friends, and some friends that were friends, and then I started helping them with their website. So I still do some, and I think that’s also good because it keeps me involved also in using the plugin and the other plugins, and I see what’s going on. And I still have the hands-on experience with WordPress and building pages. And so I do a little bit of that still, yes.

Amy Masson:

We talked about content marketing on a recent episode, and you mentioned that you do some of that, but how much of your job right now is writing versus organizing? Tell us a little bit more about what you are doing on a day-to-day basis, and what skillset you’re bringing to that.

Yvette Sonneveld:

It’s really a “no day is the same” kind of job. A lot of it are projects. We launched in Shopify not too long ago, and one of the core values of Yoast is that, in order to make sure that your product is a good product, you need to be your own customer. So our team, together with some of the other departments, built a store in Shopify. We’re still working out some details before we can go live, but there will be an official Yoast store in the near future. So that’s one of the projects that I’ve been working on.

Yvette Sonneveld:

One of the things that’s currently coming and will be more of my job probably the near future is getting more of the newer Yoasters to become speakers. For over two decades, I called myself not management material, but then I was convinced that I should really give this another try. So I’m studying hard and making lots of mistakes in growth to be the manager that I would love to have had, which probably is a combination of goods and bads of other managers that made me to who I am.

Yvette Sonneveld:

What other things? I spent quite a bit of my time on learning about how the company works basically, because there’s so much going on within the company. So a lot of the questions that I get as a team lead I still have to figure out. So that takes up a lot of my time.

Yvette Sonneveld:

And then there’s just so many other things. One of the things that I used to do for the two agencies that I worked for before I came at Yoast was writing customer stories. Case studies, if you will. And that’s something that we’re currently setting up within Yoast, so that’s another thing of the things that I’m doing. And that will get me back into writing again, because I haven’t done a lot of writing for Yoast in this role.

Yvette Sonneveld:

So it’s really a mix of so many, many different things. When we started moving internationally, at some point, I created the website, and it’s a family website to keep family informed. And it had this tagline was The Sonnevelds, and then “Never a dull moment.” And we made that our family tagline, and well, boy, has it become true. We keep saying that. We look at each other, and if [inaudible 00:28:56] happens, well, well, never until a dull moment.

Tracy Apps:

I heard it’s good for the plot.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Yeah, absolutely is.

Tracy Apps:

It’s great. I love it. Well, you have such a wealth of experience. Even just bouncing around the world, even just that. I just think about the cultural differences between spaces, and when you live in those places, even things that look very nuanced, they look almost very similar in culture, there’s so much under the surface that you learn and grow from just being there. And I feel like I think everyone needs to travel internationally, and I think it should be something that everyone should just be allowed to do. It should just be something that it doesn’t require the privilege of money and this, because so much you learn about relating to other people, you learn so much about yourself. You become so much better of a community member by experiencing that yourself, and I think that’s invaluable experience.

Yvette Sonneveld:

I keep saying, keep telling people, if you have the opportunity to spend a year abroad, do it, because it will change you so much for the good. Will it be hard? Yes. Will you get to know yourself, and run into all sorts of limits? Yes. But it’ll also teach you that your way of thinking may really be valid, but there are so many other ways to accomplish the same goal. And you learn by running into your limits, by crushing your head into concrete walls. You will learn that there’s not only a plan A, but if you are willing to set your mind to it, you can get to Z. And every time things don’t work out, you try another thing until you figure it out.

Tracy Apps:

Yep. It’s plan A to plan purple. It’s everything in between.

Angela Bowman:

I’m ready to move out and be an expat. I’m ready to relocate forever.

Tracy Apps:

I know. If anyone wants to sponsor the Women in WP to become expats …

Angela Bowman:

Yeah. My husband would be on board. If he could be a kept man, he would be okay. But all these balls and chains that I have attached to me make it a little difficult to relocate and be an expat. But I would like to do that.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Now, mind you, also there’s a difference between being an expat when you’re being sent by the company that you work for to another company, where usually your social circles will all be other expats. That makes it easy because you’re all in the same boat, but the experience is much more shallow than when you have to live on a local income and work with the local people, where it’s really important all of a sudden to speak the local language. The difference is fast, and your growth will definitely be deeper and richer if you’re able to do the second version.

Amy Masson:

Wow. Yes. For sure. That’s something to aspire to.

Angela Bowman:

So when you’re speaking at conferences, I know that’s something that you’ve done, do you have a particular topic you like to focus on, or do you bounce around?

Yvette Sonneveld:

My very first talk, I decided to speak about my personal growth through contributing. It was a lightning talk, and I called it Volun-tourism, which is basically how I got to travel and grow my self-confidence, et cetera. It’s basically 10 minutes about that, approximately the stuff of the first part of this wonderful conversation, and also very much about growing or stretching your comfort zone. Because I wasn’t confident enough yet to speak about professional stuff, and I think that was a good step. Also, after a while, people came to me and said, “Because of that talk, I started volunteering, and that really was a good tip.” Which then again, getting that feedback helps you grow and helps you get that confirmation, because we all need people around us that say, “I believe in you, I know you can do it. You’ve got this.”

Yvette Sonneveld:

So that’s where I started. Then, my second talk was about creating buyer persona, because that was something that I was very passionate about. So the talks after that were mostly about content marketing, online marketing, but I’ll be speaking on WorkFest later this week, and that’s an extended version of my very first talk, because people kept asking me to do an extended version. And because since 2017 so much happened when I did that first talk, it was two months after Paris. Little did I know that it was the beginning of such a crazy rollercoaster, because really that’s what it was.

Yvette Sonneveld:

So that’s what I’ll be doing this time. And now that I’m not really working in content marketing anymore, I think I’ll have to find a new groove. So we’ll see.

Amy Masson:

My question is does everyone have to be able to do a Lego build to be able to work at Yoast?

Yvette Sonneveld:

Yeah. And I love doing thing between the blocks, the good work blocks, and then the Lego blocks. Yeah. I have another crazy idea that we should get form blocks and hero blocks so that people, freelance developers, agencies could show their clients the blocks. This is the [crosstalk 00:35:45]-

Tracy Apps:

I love this idea. I love this idea. They could have the logo on the outside. It could be … Oh, okay.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Colleges could start building UX that way.

Tracy Apps:

Out of Legos? Well, I always say, okay, when you’re planning out your site or whatever, use sticky notes or something, because then you could just like do this, and then you move them around. With Legos, it would be even more fun.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Oh, who knows? We spark it here or somewhere else, because nothing ever …

Tracy Apps:

Yep.

Angela Bowman:

We don’t post the video anymore, but Tracy is lit up right now.

Yvette Sonneveld:

You should see the sparkle in her eyes. Yeah. Priceless.

Angela Bowman:

Maybe the people at Yoast want to hire Tracy.

Tracy Apps:

Okay.

Angela Bowman:

Tracy’s now accepted the position.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Could be the trigger you need to move back to Denmark.

Angela Bowman:

There you go.

Tracy Apps:

Okay.

Angela Bowman:

I would move to the Netherlands. I liked it when I was there for YoastCon, so I’m ready. I’m ready to go. I’m ready to go anywhere at this point. Just let me out of this country.

Tracy Apps:

That’s right. I love the Netherlands. I’ve been there. Yeah. I enjoyed it. I enjoy that. Well, when I was in Amsterdam, and I was taking the trams, I just kept calling the Amster trams “Amster trams” because I thought it was funny. But I just love being able to get around anywhere without a car. It’s just so foreign here, especially where I live. Where if you’re walking on the street, people are looking at you like …

Angela Bowman:

What’s wrong with you?

Tracy Apps:

Did you forget your car?

Angela Bowman:

Did you run out of gas? I’m just so happy my sister moved to the Netherlands, because it’s the best place to fly to Amsterdam and to have that be your central location. Because, from there, you can just go out to any place. It’s the best, but definitely having family there and having a free place always to stay. And I just feel so lucky. It makes it like a no-brainer.

Yvette Sonneveld:

One of the things that I miss the most about not living in the Netherlands and the thing that I would basically do within two hours after I landed in the Netherlands, most of the time also easily because I stayed with my parents the few day or two, was hopping on a bike. Going to the drug store, the supermarket, but just that wind in your hair, and the fact that you didn’t need to hop in your car and be in your car for 15 minutes to get some stuff. And five-and-a-half years in, I still appreciate and really deeply enjoy that every time I get that chance. Because I love my car, I really do, and I really love the independence that it gives me, but the fact that stuff is so close by, you can just hop on your bike. And it’s safe because most towns have separate biking path. Having your kids be able to go to school by themselves, to go to hockey or ballet or dance or whatever they do by themselves, that independence is priceless. Yeah.

Angela Bowman:

And let’s not forget Stroopwafels.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Obviously. But no matter where you buy them in the world, you can buy them across the globe, they’re never as good as in the Netherlands because then they’re fresh.

Angela Bowman:

Nope.

Angela Bowman:

Well, it has been a delight having you on today. I’d like to thank our sponsor Ninja Forms again. And before we go, if you could tell everybody where they can find you online.

Yvette Sonneveld:

You can find me if you Google Yvette Sonneveld, or in most of the platforms, I’m @yvettesonneveld. That includes WordPress, Slack, Netherlands Slack, and at Yoast, and all US conferences and webinars.

Angela Bowman:

Awesome. Thank you.

Yvette Sonneveld:

Thank you, guys. Thank you, girls, much for having me. Ladies. This was so much fun.

Angela Bowman:

Thank you for listening. Interested in being on the show? Sign up on our website, womeninwp.com. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram, and join our Facebook group to have conversations with other women in WordPress.

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